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  1. #1
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    Lets discuss Pivot 4

    Before I start, no this would not belong in the Pivot 4 development thread. My aim for this is to discuss how Pivot 4 is going to affect the animating community, ways of animating, and perspectives.


    I wanted to start this thread after remembering some events in 2008, with an animator called Taps. He animated in Pivot 3 and used sprites in his animations, most specifically, his DDC7:

    [spoiler:3u6jdeyj][youtube:3u6jdeyj]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJ1UEETblyE[/youtube:3u6jdeyj]
    Skip to 4:42 - BBcode wouldn't let me show the clip on this page at that time.[/spoiler:3u6jdeyj]

    I can't remember who was involved, but there was heavy debate over whether he deserved his place as a veteran because he used sprites, and that it wasn't as much effort as individuality moving each .stk (because he would sprite a truck with 5 different fills, for example). I thought this topic would be good to open with.

    Now, at the time this was worthy of debate, but I think now it would generally be accepted to not be that big of a deal to be using sprites to animate something that would be the same outcome if you were to take the long road around in 2.2.5. In Pivot 4, this is going to be used a lot by people, with little to no conflict because there would be no 2.2.5 > 3 beta war, and I think that is a step forward in how animation quality will progress.

    However, there are a few issues I think. Will the new features affect ranks? Lets say something that took a lot of effort to make in 2.2.5 got Animator A veteran, but Animator B did the same thing with little effort due to the new features in Pivot 4 (not necessarily sprites, just used that as an example), would he equally be moved to Veteran, or not? This also poses the question of, should animations be judged or ranked based on how much effort went into them, or the quality?

    On the mention of sprites though...it is definitely a good feature. I think I will definitely be using this a lot where multi-select just can't cut it, such as in this animation I did (sorry, I don't mean to attention whore my animations), where some of the fish's body parts changed .stks while others didn't, and some of the .stks such as the eye outline and eye fill being dependent on each other.

    [spoiler:3u6jdeyj][/spoiler:3u6jdeyj]

    With spriting, I make sprites for each movement of the tail/fin/body with the static body parts, and then separate sprites for the eyes which aren't dependent on the motions of the other parts. This would reduce the amount of objects to move from 20ish to 3, and would have made my work a lot easier.

    Now of course the issue relates to the first point I made about whether or not effort will dictate ranks or quality, but something else I wanted to bring up, was non-pivot sprites. How will importing an image like this into a gunfight animation be received, in your opinion?:

    [tn=500:3u6jdeyj]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/57/AK-47_type_II_Part_DM-ST-89-01131.jpg[/tn:3u6jdeyj]

    I think there still lies the fundamental value of simplicity in pivot, or pivot-produced complexity, and adding something like this would be like...adding gravy to an apple crumble. But am I being too conservative or not?

    And one last point I want to raise about how Pivot 4 will affect animation quality is...should we encourage people to stop being lazy with their animations? I understand why people don't want to include highly detailed backgrounds, or any backgrounds at all in a skeletal-focused animation software where backgrounds can lower the quality of the prominent movements, but this will no longer be an issue. Similarly, 3D movements will also be [s:3u6jdeyj]really easy now[/s:3u6jdeyj] more practical with editing of figures within the animation canvas being accessible now, as opposed to having to edit the figure tediously in the stick figure builder, so should this also be encouraged?

    Outside of how ti affects animation quality, I was wondering how this will affect the community. Will we see a large number of animators returning, or even flash animators who refused pivot before now seeing it as less tedious?

    This thread is not just for discussing the points I have raised, I also want to hear any speculation, predictions or food for thought that you guys have about Pivot 4. Thanks if you took the time to read this all, though.

  2. #2
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    Re: Lets discuss Pivot 4

    This is currently being discussed by the Animation Team (Yes guys, I do read absolutely everything that happens on this site ) and it's certainly an interesting situation.

    One thing that certainly won't be happening is the incentivisation of a particular style, our ranks have always been determined by three main pillars of what I consider to be important to animation: Understanding, detail and creativity. Whether you use sprites or not will not affect this.

    By all means discuss!

  3. #3
    The Green Boss

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    Re: Lets discuss Pivot 4

    Yes, we have an idea that we will announce once pivot 4 is released don't worry.

  4. #4
    Mother Russia Cavolia's Avatar

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    Re: Lets discuss Pivot 4

    I myself am a big fan of sprites to create cinematic backgrounds, it saves time and can look a lot better. I'm thankful Pyro Mecha made a tutorial about that technique. I can understand people may find it less impresive, but honestly I think it's about the end result and not the animating process.

    About the simplified 3D feature, I believe it will still take quite some skills to manage 3D movements. It's one thing to edit a limb on canvas, and another to make it actually look 3D-ish. Perspective is, and will always be a tough son of a bitch.
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  5. #5
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    Re: Lets discuss Pivot 4

    Quote Originally Posted by Elliott
    (Yes guys, I do read absolutely everything that happens on this site )
    Really? I can't imagine that you are taking a look in everyone's thread.

    The main thing/change about the Pivot 4 update that will happen in this community will probably the ranks and the individuality.
    The ranks will change alot in my opinion, it's alot easier to work with backgrounds now for example.
    Everyone will be able to use the new features of Pivot 4, everyone will find new ways to animate which opens more dimensions in pivot animating.

    And to anyone who thinks that Pivot 4 will feel less pivoty I want to say that the main part about pivot, which makes it special is still there: The pivot dots/joints, which is a whole different way in animating.

    Oh, and on another note, I am really looking forward to the time, shortly after P4 is released.
    So many people, maybe even some older users or admins will push out animations, the forums will be active as it used to be.

  6. #6
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    Re: Lets discuss Pivot 4

    Quote Originally Posted by Elliott
    One thing that certainly won't be happening is the incentivisation of a particular style, our ranks have always been determined by three main pillars of what I consider to be important to animation: Understanding, detail and creativity. Whether you use sprites or not will not affect this.

    By all means discuss!
    Hm, definitely different to how it was when I was a Rank Team member (reppin' the original group name). There wasn't really any guides on how to judge animation, it was just a matter of whether someone deemed an animator was to be moved up or down on their own subjective terms. I didn't actually think of using real life sprites as a 'style', but I guess you are right. But from what you are saying, I am assuming the approach to judging animation is the the quality over the effort inputted? I think I am leaning towards that myself, especially as we approach Pivot 4.

    Could you elaborate more on what you mean by understanding, detail and creativity, though?

    Quote Originally Posted by Juke
    Yes, we have an idea that we will announce once pivot 4 is released don't worry.
    Well, this thread isn't entirely centered around how the ranking process will change, I'm also wondering how animations will be received by fellow non-animation team animators, and how animation quality will develop, etc etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cavolia
    I myself am a big fan of sprites to create cinematic backgrounds, it saves time and can look a lot better. I'm thankful Pyro Mecha made a tutorial about that technique. I can understand people may find it less impresive, but honestly I think it's about the end result and not the animating process.

    About the simplified 3D feature, I believe it will still take quite some skills to manage 3D movements. It's one thing to edit a limb on canvas, and another to make it actually look 3D-ish. Perspective is, and will always be a tough son of a bitch.
    I guess I didn't think too much into it, but I didn't mean to imply it will be easier, just more practical and accessible. Perspective is indeed a tough son of a bitch!

  7. #7
    The Green Boss

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    Re: Lets discuss Pivot 4

    Quote Originally Posted by Sway
    Quote Originally Posted by Juke
    Yes, we have an idea that we will announce once pivot 4 is released don't worry.
    Well, this thread isn't entirely centered around how the ranking process will change, I'm also wondering how animations will be received by fellow non-animation team animators, and how animation quality will develop, etc etc.
    That is what we will be discussing when pivot4 is released

  8. #8
    Veteran Enthusiast Krustalien's Avatar


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    Re: Lets discuss Pivot 4

    Interesting points, man. I don't think there should be any expectation ("doing so and so will be much easier and so it's expected") put on animators though, as that will only narrow creativity.

    Naturally the ranks will need fiddling, but until we have had a few weeks of playtime with Pivot 4 we can only speculate how. I don't expect them to shift all that much in the first 6 months, is the truth. We're the same animators no matter the programme. I do think there'll be an overall rise in standard over the next few years, though, which isn't something I particularly look forward to.

    I personally look forward to seeing Pivot move away from stickmen. I know I'll be testing its potential as a professional animation software, using it in a triangle with graphics software and Flash. Pivot's skeletal approach to animation is second to none, even if freeware, and with the new features hopefully cartoons will become much more viable.


  9. #9
    Senior Member OrangeJuice's Avatar

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    Re: Lets discuss Pivot 4

    Hey Sway, just read your post and that's some really interesting information I never would have thought of. This may not be my place to judge since I'm a beginner, but I feel that while some aspects will indeed be made easier, the concepts of animations will remain the same. A person's skill level doesn't increase necessarily with more functions, it may even lower because there are many new features.

    Imagine you have two dogs and want to take them for a walk. You'll walk one dog in a regular, traditional collar and leash.
    [spoiler:1k6ccje2][/spoiler:1k6ccje2]

    The second dog you'll walk in a "high-tech" leash with a retractable leash and a flashlight.
    [spoiler:1k6ccje2][/spoiler:1k6ccje2]

    Sure the second leash may look more appealing and easy to use, but if the dog pulls you no flashlights or retracting leashes will prevent the dog from pulling you, only your own strength will.

    Same goes for the flashlight: you may have an illuminated path but you still can walk into a pole or trip, etc.

    TL;DR - An animator's skill is what determines their rank, not the nifty features used. Therefore I don't think that the rank system should be altered.

  10. #10
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    Re: Lets discuss Pivot 4

    The first thing Im going to do when P4 comes out is start abusing the stretchy
    feature. I love how peter decided to incorporate the stretchyness in. Also,
    I wonder how many peope will start using sprites more often.


 
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