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Thread: DBZ 4

  1. #421
    Working on LVD2!
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    Looking forward to DBZ 5!
    See you in more 4 years...lol joking but I hope it will come soon.

  2. #422
    Fanatic Enthusiast Chris's Avatar

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    well deserved man. You're awesome. Just logged in to tell you that.
    Jojishi likes this.
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  3. #423
    Enthusiast OblivionFall's Avatar

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    DBZ 4 review

    I've been studying Professional Animation for the last year and a half, so my comments are going to be a LOT more technical than they have been in the past. I hope you will take this as constructive criticism rather than an attack on your noob-proclaimed God status.

    Let's begin.

    Stating the obvious, this is a long animation. For a program like Pivot, that alone is rather impressive. More than just that, it is a long DBZ animation, the draw-back here being that after while it just feels like I am seeing the same thing over and over.

    The main strength of this animation is cleanliness. You're clearly a master of having one movement flow into another smoothly, with little to no shakiness or apparent stiffness. That's a good thing, right? Well, not always.

    In my studies I am beginning to learn that there is a LOT more to easing than just making things look smooth. In fact, the greatest contributor to smooth movements is the use of Arcs to prevent movements from feeling stiff and one-dimensional. In addition, clean arcs will eliminate all shakiness when utilized correctly. In their simplest form, Arcs are a constant change in direction over time (A curve)

    Easing on the other hand is a change in speed over time. Good animation requires both. It's unfortunate in my view that this fact is so often misunderstood by the Pivot Community. Most people here understand Easing to be the main contributor to smooth animation, which is false. You could create an animation in which there is no easing at all yet the movements are still completely smooth without any shakiness or stiffness.

    Circular motion is the key here; a constant change in direction, but no change in speed. This will invariably produce movements which are floaty and weak. Doing the opposite, with huge changes in speed and few changes in direction, will produce movements which are restricted, but powerful. They key to developing a good animation style is finding the balance between the two.

    Poses are even more important. Poses define the basic shape of your character. The process of animation creates a change in shape over time. A good pose has appeal - It must have a strong line of action and it must be expressive in one way or another.

    I'm getting a little off track here, so back to the main topic.

    Jojishi, your animation was great but it was not the best. It's certainly the best animation we've had in a while, but I have seen better. The problem with your animation style is that your movements are weak. They're smooth, but they have no weight to them. None of the hits felt like they had any power. Nothing felt big or epic. Sure, there were some scenes where you speed up the tempo and it was genuinely exciting, but the power still wasn't there.

    Overall, it felt like I was watching two ants fight. I'm sure the struggle was big for them, but it didn't feel big for me. They felt puny, like I was viewing them from under a magnifying glass (This feeling was emphasized on the shots where it zoomed out). There wasn't much contrast between small and big movements. None of the poses were particularly strong or memorable. Overall, the animation didn't leave any impact on me.

    And it really is a shame, because I can tell that you put a LOT of effort into this. You did an amazing job making everything smooth, and I know it takes a huge amount of talent to produce clean arcs and paths of motion. There was a great sense of flow throughout the whole thing. In fact, there was too much of it.

    Not every movement is supposed to flow perfect, ESPECIALLY with action animations. When a character is punched in the face, that punch should BREAK the flow of whichever movement they were in the middle of performing. Yet here, the flow carries on into the reaction in places where it shouldn't. For a more extreme example, if you were hit by a train whilst doing acrobatics, would your bones break gracefully? No. It would be very sudden and unpleasant (For you, anyway).

    The fix here is to put power into your movements. Sudden acceleration followed by sudden deceleration is the key to power (In other words, MASSIVE changes in speed) There's a reason this animation style is called Heavy-spacing, because it gives weight to your characters. I'm not telling you to abandon your current animation style or anything, just remember that you need more style-variation between different kinds of movements. Powerful movements should be Heavy-spaced, and graceful movements should flow. There are more subtle variations as well, but I wont get into those.

    Another contributing factor to your characters feeling weak is just how floppy they are. Don't get me wrong, subtle rag-doll animation is perfectly fine in of itself. But THIS animation was aiming to be big and epic, which makes the occasional presence of floppy arms a little disorientating. Something Crono talked about in his big tutorial was muscle-control. It's worth checking out.

    In final summary, this is NOT a bad animation. It's a great animation. It just isn't anywhere near as good as it should be. It had a lot of potential to be something incredible and it just fell utterly short. As I said, there were a couple of moments that got me excited, but they were short-lived and overall the animation left me feeling disappointed.
    Last edited by OblivionFall; 04 Mar 2014 at 06:09 AM.

  4. #424
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    Quote Originally Posted by OblivionFall View Post
    I've been studying Professional Animation for the last year and a half, so my comments are going to be a LOT more technical than they have been in the past. I hope you will take this as constructive criticism rather than an attack on your noob-proclaimed God status.

    Let's begin.

    Stating the obvious, this is a long animation. For a program like Pivot, that alone is rather impressive. More than just that, it is a long DBZ animation, the draw-back here being that after while it just feels like I am seeing the same thing over and over.

    The main strength of this animation is cleanliness. You're clearly a master of having one movement flow into another smoothly, with little to no shakiness or apparent stiffness. That's a good thing, right? Well, not always.

    In my studies I am beginning to learn that there is a LOT more to easing than just making things look smooth. In fact, the greatest contributor to smooth movements is the use of Arcs to prevent movements from feeling stiff and one-dimensional. In addition, clean arcs will eliminate all shakiness when utilized correctly. In their simplest form, Arcs are a constant change in direction over time (A curve)

    Easing on the other hand is a change in speed over time. Good animation requires both. It's unfortunate in my view that this fact is so often misunderstood by the Pivot Community. Most people here understand Easing to be the main contributor to smooth animation, which is false. You could create an animation in which there is no easing at all yet the movements are still completely smooth without any shakiness or stiffness.

    Circular motion is the key here; a constant change in direction, but no change in speed. This will invariably produce movements which are floaty and weak. Doing the opposite, with huge changes in speed and few changes in direction, will produce movements which are restricted, but powerful. They key to developing a good animation style is finding the balance between the two.

    Poses are even more important. Poses define the basic shape of your character. The process of animation creates a change in shape over time. A good pose has appeal - It must have a strong line of action and it must be expressive in one way or another.

    I'm getting a little of track here, so back to the main topic.

    Jojishi, your animation was great but it was not the best. It's certainly the best animation we've had in a while, but I have seen better. The problem with your animation style is that your movements are weak. They're smooth, but they have no weight to them. None of the hits felt like they had any power. Nothing felt big or epic. Sure, there were some scenes where you speed up the tempo and it was genuinely exciting, but the power still wasn't there.

    Overall, it felt like I was watching two ants fight. I'm sure the struggle was big for them, but it didn't feel big for me. They felt puny, like I was viewing them from under a magnifying glass (This feeling was emphasized on the shots where it zoomed out). There wasn't much contrast between small and big movements. None of the poses were particularly strong or memorable. Overall, the animation didn't leave any impact on me.

    And it really is a shame, because I can tell that you put a LOT of effort into this. You did an amazing job making everything smooth, and I know it takes a huge amount of talent to produce clean arcs and paths of motion. There was a great sense of flow throughout the whole thing. In fact, there was too much of it.

    Not every movement is supposed to flow perfect, ESPECIALLY with action animations. When a character is punched in the face, that punch should BREAK the flow of whichever movement they were in the middle of performing. Yet here, the flow carries on into the reaction in places where it shouldn't. For a more extreme example, if you were hit by a train whilst doing acrobatics, would your bones break gracefully? No. It would be very sudden and unpleasant (For you, anyway).

    The fix here is to put power into your movements. Sudden acceleration followed by sudden deceleration is the key to power (In other words, MASSIVE changes in speed) There's a reason this animation style is called Heavy-spacing, because it gives weight to your characters. I'm not telling you to abandon your current animation style or anything, just remember that you need more style-variation between different kinds of movements. Powerful movements should be Heavy-spaced, and graceful movements should flow. There are more subtle variations as well, but I wont get into those.

    Another contributing factor to your characters feeling weak is just how floppy they are. Don't get me wrong, subtle rag-doll animation is perfectly fine in of itself. But THIS animation was aiming to be big and epic, which makes the occasional presence of floppy arms a little disorientating. Something Crono talked about in his big tutorial was muscle-control. It's worth checking out.

    In final summary, this is NOT a bad animation. It's a great animation. It just isn't anywhere near as good as it should be. It had a lot of potential to be something incredible and it just fell utterly short. As I said, there were a couple of moments that got me excited, but they were short-lived and overall the animation left me feeling disappointed.
    whoah man

  5. #425
    he llo Mitchell's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by OblivionFall View Post
    ***
    To be honest I agree with what you've said however in kind of a different context. You seem to highlight spacing as his biggest contributing factor towards the movements lacking impact at some key points (seemingly anyway). To be honest I kinda think that spacing (speed) was the part he had down, it might not be quite as abrupt as it should be but you can definitely see some sharper increases in spacing before some points of impact which gives the movements some decent "pop" to his credit.

    I think poses (direction) were the biggest problem in some movements lacking some force, I agree with what you said about sharper movements and tighter arcs that break the flow of a directional change contributing to power, you just didn't seem to highlight this as the main issue in contrast to spacing, which I kinda think it was.

    So yeah I agree with you but in a backwards kinda way, overall I wouldn't go as far as calling the animation flat out disappointing is what i'm trying to say here.
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  6. #426
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    With all my respect, Oblivion. But I don't think you've told him anything new. The main purpose of animation is creating a beautiful image which is seemingly a present factor. Maybe the WOW factor isn't completely there because of lack of actual 3D and non-animated smoke which brings me to the next: I think that the reasonning behind not animating the smoke was because he wanted to attract our eyes to the characters, not the smoke.

  7. #427
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    Quote Originally Posted by OblivionFall View Post
    I've been studying Professional Animation for the last year and a half, so my comments are going to be a LOT more technical than they have been in the past. I hope you will take this as constructive criticism rather than an attack on your noob-proclaimed God status.

    Let's begin.

    Stating the obvious, this is a long animation. For a program like Pivot, that alone is rather impressive. More than just that, it is a long DBZ animation, the draw-back here being that after while it just feels like I am seeing the same thing over and over.

    The main strength of this animation is cleanliness. You're clearly a master of having one movement flow into another smoothly, with little to no shakiness or apparent stiffness. That's a good thing, right? Well, not always.

    In my studies I am beginning to learn that there is a LOT more to easing than just making things look smooth. In fact, the greatest contributor to smooth movements is the use of Arcs to prevent movements from feeling stiff and one-dimensional. In addition, clean arcs will eliminate all shakiness when utilized correctly. In their simplest form, Arcs are a constant change in direction over time (A curve)

    Easing on the other hand is a change in speed over time. Good animation requires both. It's unfortunate in my view that this fact is so often misunderstood by the Pivot Community. Most people here understand Easing to be the main contributor to smooth animation, which is false. You could create an animation in which there is no easing at all yet the movements are still completely smooth without any shakiness or stiffness.

    Circular motion is the key here; a constant change in direction, but no change in speed. This will invariably produce movements which are floaty and weak. Doing the opposite, with huge changes in speed and few changes in direction, will produce movements which are restricted, but powerful. They key to developing a good animation style is finding the balance between the two.

    Poses are even more important. Poses define the basic shape of your character. The process of animation creates a change in shape over time. A good pose has appeal - It must have a strong line of action and it must be expressive in one way or another.

    I'm getting a little off track here, so back to the main topic.

    Jojishi, your animation was great but it was not the best. It's certainly the best animation we've had in a while, but I have seen better. The problem with your animation style is that your movements are weak. They're smooth, but they have no weight to them. None of the hits felt like they had any power. Nothing felt big or epic. Sure, there were some scenes where you speed up the tempo and it was genuinely exciting, but the power still wasn't there.

    Overall, it felt like I was watching two ants fight. I'm sure the struggle was big for them, but it didn't feel big for me. They felt puny, like I was viewing them from under a magnifying glass (This feeling was emphasized on the shots where it zoomed out). There wasn't much contrast between small and big movements. None of the poses were particularly strong or memorable. Overall, the animation didn't leave any impact on me.

    And it really is a shame, because I can tell that you put a LOT of effort into this. You did an amazing job making everything smooth, and I know it takes a huge amount of talent to produce clean arcs and paths of motion. There was a great sense of flow throughout the whole thing. In fact, there was too much of it.

    Not every movement is supposed to flow perfect, ESPECIALLY with action animations. When a character is punched in the face, that punch should BREAK the flow of whichever movement they were in the middle of performing. Yet here, the flow carries on into the reaction in places where it shouldn't. For a more extreme example, if you were hit by a train whilst doing acrobatics, would your bones break gracefully? No. It would be very sudden and unpleasant (For you, anyway).

    The fix here is to put power into your movements. Sudden acceleration followed by sudden deceleration is the key to power (In other words, MASSIVE changes in speed) There's a reason this animation style is called Heavy-spacing, because it gives weight to your characters. I'm not telling you to abandon your current animation style or anything, just remember that you need more style-variation between different kinds of movements. Powerful movements should be Heavy-spaced, and graceful movements should flow. There are more subtle variations as well, but I wont get into those.

    Another contributing factor to your characters feeling weak is just how floppy they are. Don't get me wrong, subtle rag-doll animation is perfectly fine in of itself. But THIS animation was aiming to be big and epic, which makes the occasional presence of floppy arms a little disorientating. Something Crono talked about in his big tutorial was muscle-control. It's worth checking out.

    In final summary, this is NOT a bad animation. It's a great animation. It just isn't anywhere near as good as it should be. It had a lot of potential to be something incredible and it just fell utterly short. As I said, there were a couple of moments that got me excited, but they were short-lived and overall the animation left me feeling disappointed.
    Well I guess I just can't see it because I'm not a pro yet and my eye can't notice these flaws.
    I can see it only when Vegeta and Goku run from the beams, so the running was quite lack of power, because their body didn't move, but as for the fight, you said that the flow isn't good always, but I disagree, the fact that the fight flowed so well is what made the fight to look really good, the moves were so fast but it didn't seem to me like the movements were lack of power, to me it was perfect, there were some attacks that could have a little bit more power but however most of the movements were awesome.

    Also Sifter, I think you're right, he did it like that because he wanted we to focus on the characters, and the smoke looked actually really good.

  8. #428
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    Oblivion surely pointed some factors out that did bother me on the second time I watched the animation. Especially the small lack of power in some attacks, but I was pretty fine with that.

    I know that the animation took a really long time to get done. The first minutes and the rest had almost a year long gap between em, like Joji told me in Skype. Please, correct me if I'm wrong.. So the change in animating style and quality is rather noticeable there. First some of the parts seemed bit rushed compared to the stuff that happend near the end.

    I now know that you can't just rush into doing a combo with no specific idea of any attack order. Otherwise you'll end up getting into a weird pose or such, where the combo can't go on normally. Nowadays I draw combo charts for myself to keep some of my ideas in memory so i can use them later. But what I know from Joji's animating style, he has done DBZ animations before, so I believe most of those combos came with the flow of motivation.

    Of course one thing that points out in this animation is the length. This feature can be good but as well a bad thing. For some people it might become boring to watch two guys fighting each other. Oblivion said a thing about repeating or redoing some old stuff and I can see what he might be after. The whole animation was *SPOILER ALERT* two guy fighting each other for 4 minutes. *END OF SPOILER* But hey, I've seen some Dragonball Z animes in TV, and that's pretty much how it goes in the tv series. Some people like it, some of them don't.

    And I know this is a bad way to end a "review", but I can't say that DBZ 4 is missing something. In the end, it's not my animation. Of course people can say that they didn't like the movements and attacks, because they don't look so realistic. And I'm not refering to the ability of flying that the characters have. xD
    Jojishi has his own style of animating and people love it! It's something that you might not see everyday. If I want to see more realistic movements, I look at someone else's animations. People like my animations because of the effects and possible fullbodies, not because of the movements. But I don't want to say that movements wouldn't be necessary or anything. I want to point out that some people focus on other factories like movements and 3-D instead of backgrounds and effects.

    People might see this post as a garbage, but I just wanted to leave my thoughts and give out my opinion. xD
    Anton, Jojishi, Raymond and 2 others like this.

  9. #429
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    Fucking awesome! The best bit of the whole thing imo was when he threw that beam which broke into shards, fired it at the forcefield and broke it. That was truly epic.

    The fighting was sweet too and you chained combos for a long time. It looked messy and powerless at times, due to the singular limbs looking like they were doing all the hitting and no bodyweight being applied. Also a few physic flaws were spotted due to the characters changing directions and positions uber swiftly and what-not.

    Besides that, this is the longest animation to come out in like forever I think. Awesome dedication to keep it going for that long. Truly you should be proud.
    Jojishi likes this.

  10. #430
    Old Newbie Espio's Avatar
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    That was awesome!!! Great Animation Jojishi
    this reminds me of why I started doing Pivot in the first place,
    the first DBZ animation was what inspired me, THANK YOU
    If you set goals you can easily reach, you'll never get better


 

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